The Human Factor – by Donny Roth

Posted on October 26th, 2011 by andy | 18 responses

BCA Ambassador Donny Roth skis all year round as an athlete, guide, and educator. He runs the website Alpine Ambitions (.com) and owns Chile Powder Adventures – a guide service dedicated to human-powered skiing in Chile. The mountains in Colorado are seeing more frequent snowstorms. There are even a few chairlifts are turning. The mornings are cooler, and the days are shorter. Winter is coming. As a professional skier, guide, and educator, my fall is dedicated to preparing for the coming winter. As I am preparing for the normal round of avalanche education courses to lead in the early season, my thoughts continually gravitate back to recent experiences with a group in Bariloche, Argentina. If you’ve ever been to Argentina you may have noticed that the snowpack is generally pretty stable. The people on the other hand… I hope you go into the backcountry this season. Whether it’s your first trip through a gate at the local resort, or one of a thousand laps you’ll tour this season, at some point you’ll ask the classic question, “Do you think it’s safe?” Traveling in the backcountry in the winter is a complex equation. The snowpack is one part of this equation. The people in the group – their actions, their communication, and their preparedness – make up a larger part of this equation.

Donny makes some observations in a South American snowpit.

During my visit to the Bariloche area this season, the avalanche hazard was fairly easy to predict and for the most part the snow was stable. Because of some recent rain events the snow was pretty locked up. But during subsequent small snowstorms with significant wind, small wind slabs were popping out on the older sun and rain crusts. It was a classic case of “pockets of higher hazard.” The much less predictable hazard that we faced each day came from the group. Much like the in America, independence is a cornerstone of Argentine culture. But Argentines take it a step further by being reluctant to work as a team. This is seen in their government, the towns, and even with their soccer teams. I also got to see this in the backcountry. And it’s scary as hell. Everyday before heading into the backcountry, I would ask the group to openly discuss their goals and expectations for the day. We would discuss potential hazards and anticipate potential changes. It didn’t matter how much we talked before each trip, when we were got into the field it was every man for himself. Safe travel in the backcountry absolutely requires open, honest, and clear communication. It requires that the group work as a team. Leadership is important. But that does not mean that rest of the group follows blindly. Every member of the group is capable of making observations and discussing his or her individual feelings or perceptions. It is each individual’s responsibility to bring this to the fore at appropriate times. At this point the team will make a decision. The leader doesn’t always have more say than the other members of the group. More accurately, they are responsible for cataloging the information – mentally or physically – and potentially sorting out what is relevant. Everyone has a say. So say it! Whatever it is. Avalanches happen because of instability in the snowpack. However, people get caught in avalanches because of the behavior of the group during the day. Unspoken desires, obvious clues ignored, hidden motivations, hurt feelings, unrecognized pressure, and a host of other factors easily put us into harm’s way. Reading the snowpack is a complex equation, and most people get limited exposure to the environment. People are also complex, especially in a social setting, but we are exposed to group settings nearly daily. When we head out into the mountains with a group of friends, we should hope to get this part of the equation right. This season, when traveling in the backcountry you will likely face that classic question, “Is it safe?” Maybe a better question would be to ask, “Are we being safe?” The more often you ask this question, and discuss it as a group when needed, the better off you’ll be. If you want to improve your knowledge and skill in the backcountry this season, put as much attention on the “human factor” as you do the snow science. You can’t change the stability of the snow. You can change the stability of the group.

http://blog.oplopanax.ca Mike

The only major avalanche incident I’ve been in happened for these exact reasons. Some of the party struck out ahead and broke trail without a safety discussion or hazard assessment. The route choice led to an avalanche while we were skinning up. Fortunately nobody injured, but completely predictable and avoidable.
Chago Rodriguez

Donny I am sorry you had such a negative experience in Argentina. I have to admit that I am surprised by your experience. I have spent the last three South AMERICA winters in Argentina teaching Avalanche courses, and my experience has been the opposite. Argentineans and Chileans are hungry for all the knowledge we can share about safe travel in avalanche terrain. Their commitment to learning and to put to practice their new knowledge is as high as for any student I have taught in North AMERICA.

We are both professionals, and we have both a responsibility to MODEL behaviors. I recommend that next time you skirt generalizing or perhaps stereotyping behaviors to a whole class of people.

Chago

http://www.alpineambitions.com Donny Roth

Chago –

I could not agree more about the Argentine people’s eagerness to learn. Indeed the folks I skied with were some of the most engaged listeners I have every worked with. My comments were not meant to be the opposite of this.

I was not teaching an avalanche education course. I was there to ski with a friend, and his friends. I was the most experienced member of the group, and when I was leading, or modeling as you put it, things went well. But when I challenged them to lead themselves, I saw certain themes reoccurring for nearly two weeks. We spent a lot of time talking about this, and we discussed cultural norms at length.

Generalizations are a part of developing curriculum and teaching classes to groups. We must know our audiences, and generalizations are a part of this. At the same time, it was not fair of me to only tell a very small part of the story. For this I have attached an apology below. Please read it in your preferred language – it is sincere.

Saludos, Donny

Upset Argentinian

Hi Donny,
I am really sorry to hear that you had a bad experience in Bariloche with the argentinians. I am an argentinian as well, and i agree that sometimes argentinians can be very difficult to deal with, specially if you are going to the backcountry with them and specially if you are a foreigner. And i am not even mentioning the language barrier.
I recomend you to travel more through my country, and do not talk as if you know us all, because we are not all the same.
First of all, where you teaching in english or spanish?
The people: change depending on their education, their own experience and knowledge. Obviously, the group you dealed with had a lack of those, or there just wasn´t good communication between you and them. How many groups did you teach? Were all the groups the same?
The government: is full of corruption. Is USA government better? Do you really think goverments are a mirror of the people? Do you remember Bush? How many wars Argentina started in the last 10 years?
The towns: how many towns did you visit? did you talk to people? Have you ever been to Las Leñas, Chapelco, Caviahue, La Hoya, or Cerro Bayo? after you go through all those ski places them we can start talking about towns and people.
Soccer teams: seems that you haven´t watch enough games.
“Scary as hell??“ Excuse me for what i am going to say, what you went to Bariloche to teach them, and if they were doing things so wrong, maybe wasn´t their fault. I took several avalanche courses here and in Canada, and i have never been told “that“ in my entire life. Actually in one of them (Ski Operations Level 1, CAA), the entire group made a mistake in route finding, and the instructors of the course apologized, and told us that if the entire group had fail was because they hadn´t focus on that enough.
What you wrote about my country and the people you met was really rude, but i still like americans because i know they are not all the same.

http://www.alpineambitions.com Donny Roth

Upset Argentinian –

Puede leer mi carta de disculpa abajo. Leí tu respuesta muchos veces cuando estaba pensando de mis palabras. En verdad, la carta es mas por lo gente de Argentina.

Saludos,
Donny

http://SnowGeek.org Pedro Rodriguez

I am sorry about your experiences Donny, but your generalization of Argentinian culture, is, simply put, misguided. If you have had the experience of living, talking, and working with Argentinians, you would know that the vast majority are very friendly and can be described as the exact opposite of what you describe.

Furthermore, it is not fair to bring in that example as it is a non-unique argument; that is to say that non-cooperative groups are equally as likely in NA as in SA. There exists groups like that around the world and it would not be fair to say that it is a problem unique to SA.

Sincerely,
Pedro Rodriguez
SnowGeek.org Founder

http://www.alpineambitions.com Donny Roth

Pedro -

I never intended for my characterization of Argentine peoples’ individualistic tendencies to be the opposite of friendly. In my mind, they are not mutually exclusive. I have lived, worked, and spoken with many Argentine people and because of this I felt comfortable addressing some cultural issues. I am disappointed that I did it in a way that has been misunderstood.

If I was to write an article and include that while traveling in Argentina everyone is either “boludo” or “flaco” I would hope that the readers would understand that this isn’t actually true. It is just a common part of the culture to use these terms casually.

I agree that Argentine people are very friendly. But this too is a generalization. And I never meant to imply differently. I also certainly never meant to imply that this doesn’t happen in North America. As a matter of fact, this article is written to a predominately North American audience. It was written because I want the readers to reflect on their own tendencies and draw parallels.

Please read my apology below. It is sincere.

Saludos,
Donny Roth

AGUSTIN MIRANDA

That will have been your personal experience, maybe it’s your way of being, but can not be generalized to all well. I invite you to know Las Lenas, to see what you think.
have a very basic and little thought founded.
sorry if my English is not perfect
thank you very much
agustin from argentina

http://www.alpineambitions.com Donny Roth

Agustin –

Gracias por su invitación a Las Leñas. He visitado el centro varios veces y me encanta. Por favor, lee mi respuesta abajo.

Saludos,
Donny Roth

Marias Jose Mones

The truth is that makes me very sad to read these words, to speak of a country is to go and really know their people, which I believe you. has not done, sorry that is had a bad experience, but you. no reason, whenever we hope our country again … and in our mountains

http://www.alpineambitions.com Donny Roth

Marias Jose –

Un carta de disculpa es adjunto abajo. Si quiere responder en Español entenderé perfectamente.

Lo siento que usted mis palabras han ofendido. Espero que la carta puede ayudar un poco.

Saludos,
Donny Roth

http://www.snowproject.com.ar Erik Sweet

To the folks at BCA: I have read the replies published so far concerning Mr roth’s post. I understand that he is making a personal comment based on a single event (or trip, perhaps)and, while I strongly disagree with his assesment of the Argentines based on the BC experience he shared with them, I think the rest of his post was pretty good.

However….I feel BCA should take some of the heat for this posting because, basically, by publishing this post, they implicitly condone the slamming an entire population based on unfounded (and untrue) comments.
I teach avalanche education (Levels 1 & 2) in Argentina and Chile, and personally have been in avalanche terrain with over 200 Argentine/Chilean students. I have NEVER been in a scary situation with any of them.
As is true EVERYWHERE, people only know what they know, that’s why we teach, that’s why people sign up for courses…

I work and ski winters in Colorado, and I am always amazed by the details of the avalanche accidents reported in the US, basically they start something like this: …John Doe, an experienced back country skier, (accomplished mountaineer, expert skier, etc)died in an avalanche while…..
It usually turns out that it was after a big dump, the avalanche danger was 3/considerable, the wind had been blowing, they were skiing alone, whatever. In a nutshell, conditions were sketchy at best. Yet people still decide to go skiing/touring.

My point is this. We are all on the same journey, for some it is simply a journey of awareness, for others it is a journey of knowledge, and for yet others one of understanding. Let’s help each other on the way. Let’s help our friends, students and colleagues stay safe and have fun.

Lets take the high road BCA, it’s to everyone’s benefit.

http://www.alpineambitions.com Donny Roth

Erik –

Thank you for your response. I never meant to “slam an entire population,” and my apology attached below addresses this and is sincere.

I also was not teaching an avalanche education course. I believe that you have NEVER been in a scary situation while teaching a course, because courses are by nature my controlled than a day of ski touring with friends, which is exactly what I was doing.

When I wrote the article, I was actually paraphrasing this group’s words and ideas – not forming my own opinion. I was the new member in the group, and the only outsider. For this reason I spent two weeks asking questions about the Argentine culture and tendencies. We spoke at length about the affects of larger forces – like government and fútbol stars – on the people and culture. Of course each person has their own personality. But I wanted to know more about the culture and my words were based on the open, friendly discussions of my new Argentine friends.

I regret that I did not have the space to talk about how much they wanted to learn, how many great decisions they also made, and how kind they were to me. There is only so much space. In the future I will be much more careful about how I include “learning opportunities” so that I do not paint a group in poor light.

I also appreciate your generalization of avalanche incident reports in the United States. I know that not all avalanche incidents in the U.S. are the same as you imply, but I agree that understanding common themes help us concentrate our message. It is these generalizations that allow us to address the masses and make the biggest impact.

Your example also illustrates that traveling in the backcountry is a complex process, and that we may know about snow, and have all the right tools, but in the end it comes down to sound decision making.

Please see my apology written below. I have learned a lot through this experience, and as your last paragraph asks for, I am thankful that this group has helped me on this journey.

Dave

Thanks for your comments everyone, it’s good to see people reading and
engaging in our humble little blog. Please see Donny’s response below.
http://www.alpineambitions.com Donny Roth

This is written to all of the people that were offended by my most recent blog post, whether you chose to write or not. I regret that my words offended. It was not my intention to offend the nation, or even the folks I skied with. And I clearly see the mistake that was made.

I have asked Backcountry Access to re-post the entry, with appropriate edits, because I believe the bulk of the article is valid, and most importantly – universal.

“Much like the in America, independence is a cornerstone of Argentine culture. But Argentines take it a step further by being reluctant to work as a team. This is seen in their government, the towns, and even with their soccer teams. I also got to see this in the backcountry. And it’s scary as hell.”

This one paragraph was written as a characterization of Argentine culture as an attempt to give the article some character, not paint the people of Argentina in poor light. Writing engaging, informative content in about 500-words is challenging. It can be overly sterile, or worse, sound like a sales-pitch. This is not an excuse for dragging a culture through the mud, but merely an explanation of my intent.

I have indeed spent quite a bit of time in Argentina, and feel that I do know it well. I actually don’t think my statements were terribly off base. They were however, extremely unfair. Argentine individuality is well documented, and easily perceived. In three sentences I summarized the affects of the economic crisis of the late 90s, the influence of the legendary Gauchos, and the famous flamboyance of fútbol stars such as the great Diego Maradona.

It was an unfair representation because I did not dedicate the same amount of time to address the merits of the Argentine culture. As some of you accurately pointed out, the culture can also be characterized as being extremely friendly and eager to learn and progress. I never intended to say the contrary. I just had a limited amount of space. In hindsight the entire article reads better without my tongue-in-cheek paragraph.

And for the record, I did not have a poor experience in Argentina. I was there to ski with some members of the community in an effort to help improve backcountry safety awareness in the community, and gain an understanding of the backcountry skiing culture there. I spent my free time there on the request of a local man I met while skiing volcanoes in Chile. He described the poor economic conditions and the down turn in tourism due to the eruption of Volcán Puyehue – Cordon Caulle and I volunteered my time. In turn, my hosts were generous, kind, and extremely eager. While that gives me a great reason to write a thank you note and to return in the future, it does not present an opportunity to learn.

In the end, it is this sharing of information – the attempt to inspire people to learn – that was my intention, and is the primary goal of my sponsor, Backcountry Access. In this light, I hope I will be given a chance to learn from my mistake. While it’s easy and fair to joke about national tendencies while sharing a drink with friends, (be it maté or PBR) it is unfair to share these things publicly, and out of context. Please except my sincere apologies.

Sincerely,
Donny Roth
http://www.alpineambitions.com Donny Roth

A los gente que sintieron ofendidos por mi reciente artículo. Yo lamento que ofenden mis palabras. Lo no estaba mi intención ofender el nación, ni los gente que con esquié. Claro, puedo ver el error que he hecho.

Backcountry Access he preguntando a publicar este artículo de nuevo, con cambios apropriado, porque creo que el mayoría del artículo es válido, y lo más importante – universal.

“Much like the in America, independence is a cornerstone of Argentine culture. But Argentines take it a step further by being reluctant to work as a team. This is seen in their government, the towns, and even with their soccer teams. I also got to see this in the backcountry. And it’s scary as hell.”

Este único párrafo fue escrito con el intento de dar el artículo un poco de carácter. No lo intento a estar algo de mala onda. Escribiendo contento interesante y informativo en 500 palabras, mas o menos, es difícil. Esto no es una excusa. Solo es un explicación de mi intento.

En verdad, he pasado bastante tiempo en Argentina y siento como lo conozco bien. Creo que mis declaraciones no estaban tan mal, pero claro que no estaban justo. El personalidad individual de Argentina es bien documentado y percibido facilamente. En tres frases yo resumé los efectos del crisis económica de los 90s, la influencia de los gauchos legendarios, y la famosa extravagancia de las estrellas de fútbol como el gran Diego Maradona.

Fue una representación injusta porque no dedicar la misma cantidad de tiempo para hacer frente a los méritos de la cultura Argentina. Como muchas personas han dicho, la cultura también puede caracterizarse por ser muy amable y tener los desos de aprender y progresar. Nunca tuve la intención de decir lo contrario. Yo sólo tenía una cantidad limitada de espacio. En retrospectiva, todo el artículo es mejor sin mis bromas malas.

Yo no tenía una mala experienca en Argentina. Yo estaba allí para compartir el conocimiento con algunos miembros de la comunidad. Teníamos la esperanza de mejorar la concienca de backcountry safety en la comunidad. Pasé mi tiempo libre allí a la solicitud de un guía local que conocí mientras esquiaba volcanes en Chile. Él describe las malas condiciones economicas y la crisis en turismo debido a la erupción del Volcán Puyehue – Cordon Caulle. Y yo me ofrecí mi tiempo. En cambio, mis anfitriones fueron muy generosos, amables, y muy entusiasmado.

Al final, es el intercambio de información – el intento de inspirar a la gente a aprender – esa estaba mi intención. Ya que es el objetivo principal de Backcountry Access. En este sentido, espero que se me dará la oportunidad de aprender de mi error. Mientras que es fácil y equitativo a bromar sobre las tendencias nacionales mientras tomando con los amigos, es injusto para compartir estas cosas públicamente y fuera de contexto. Por favor, excepto mi más sinceras discuplas.

Saludos,
Donny Roth
Chago Rodriguez

Thanks Danny! Know that I truly appreciate your comments and explanation of your intentions. I will be looking forward to link turns with you el futuro.

Saludos!

Chago
http://www.alpineambitions.com Donny Roth

Thanks Chago. I hope we can meet and ski together next season as well! Estamos en contacto.

Saludos,
Donny

The Human Factor – by Donny Roth

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